Comments on: Dabchick Worlds 2008 – reflections

By: Stephen du Toit

Stephen du Toit — Mon, 11 May 2009 17:03:29 +0000

For what its worth I can now report that our 6th glass Dabby that we have built sailed in the MAC club champs on the weekend and proved to be right on the pace winning most of the races. It was sailed extremely well by Tim Manley who used his spars and sails on our hull with our foils. The boat still needed about 1.5kgs of corrector weight fitted. It was sailed by a number of sailors between races and the general comment was that the boat felt extremely stiff. The first 5 boats are sailing in Maputo and were all measured prior to delivery, they weighed between 2.5 to 3.5kg underweight. Lead was fitted to bring them up to weight. We are now adding 1kg of extra material to the deck to make the hulls slightly heavier as lead cots R85/kg and resin costs R24/kg! I will send some pics to Owen and I am waiting for other pics from Dave Manley which can hopefully be posted on the site. Before anyone thinks that these boats will make all the wooden boats( most of which I have built) obsolete, there are a few facts that must be taken into consideration. The boat and foils were out of the box, so no scratches, peeling slot tapes or dodgy paint jobs, there was a brand new mylar North main, the boat was light, and most importantly, the skipper generally sailed the course better. I do however think that the future of the class depends on the glass boat as a lot of parents are put off with the maintenance required on the now aging fleet of wooden boats. For more info please contact me on 083 658 2659.

By: Wayne Ribbink

Wayne Ribbink — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:23:30 +0000

To return to the point. Those masts cost double the price, and still required a track fitted, of the tapered, anodised Sigma sections then available, from what was Paul Green Masts, and morphed through various names thereafter. Remember it was nearly 20 years ago. Thankfully, the advance of the Dabby in adopting the high roach, full length top batten and loose foot has increased the power available to it. That sail requires a sound mast section to hold it up, and the Sigma meets that perfectly. Recent costings indicate that tapered and anodised blanks, shouldn’t be more than R 1 600. Perhaps the solution is to restrict masts to locally extruded sections, or a cost under or equivilent to a local extrusion. An effective study may be put into fittings costs as well. Branded American, UK and Australian fittings are horrendously expensive, whilst the likes of Riley Marine Fittings (Australia), are more than adequate and sometimes a quarter of the price when landed. The main offender in this case of the Dabby, is the mainsheet block. Riley do a racing junior ratchet for about R300 ex-works, I’ve had one since the early 70′s, and it’s still going strong. What we need to ensure is that this type of info is spread about, in order that cheaper options are made available. To end this, I believe that the class association will ensure that no rule breaking boats will be allowed to sail in championships. That they will look after the interest of the class to secure its future.

P.S. The cheaper solution to the flexible mast would have been ordinary aluminium tube of the correct diameter, tapered and had the same track fitted. The Unicorns did it very cost effectively as an alternative to the imported Needlespars.

By: Ian mitchell

Ian mitchell — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:29:43 +0000

Hi Wayne,

The only reason we brought these on ( 10) was that we could not find a suitable mast at that stage locally which was flexible enough. We had tested GRP sticks but they were like soggie spaggetie. maybe if somewone cold have come up with a better option we would not have to have done it. besides we were not the only people to do this and variants of this design were freely available locally at that time. In fact my first boat ( 3358) I soucred the mast in JHB.

Ian

PS, they were only abt R800 ea anyway so not expensive.

By: Wayne Ribbink

Wayne Ribbink — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:23:11 +0000

Positive comments Ian, however, I do remember you brought in a number of French manufactured rolled aluminium sailboard masts to fit on Dabbies, and that these cost quite a bit more than the standard tapered Sigma section! Anyway, we all are keen to see the Dabby back in its place as the premier junior dinghy in SA. In KZN the pressure has come from the Laser 4.7 crowd. They tote an International class and all its benifits. This went in a number of cycles that saw the youngsters move onto 4.7′s, then get horribly wasted in some big breezes in the bay. There would be swing back to Dabbies for a couples years, then the process would repeat itself. The cost, and shortage of second hand Lasers, is sure to open up the way for Dabbies again, and we have to respond pro-actively to that.

By: Ian mitchell

Ian mitchell — Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:14:15 +0000

Gents,

I have no complaints whith what anyone has said.
I have been out of SA for 7 years and was very disturbed to see on my return the demise of the class. Indeed I believe there are virtually no Dabbies in Natal.
I have no objection to any design of boat as long as it complies with the rules.
What concerns me is that maybe we are losing focus as to what the class is about.
I have no complaints with Stevens or Waynes comments as times change.
It is however a fact that the class is steadily getting smaller.

If you talk to some old members of HMYC they will tell you of Nationals with over 100 boats. When I was last involved at national level we were down to 60 if we were lucky.
Where are we now ( 30/40)
I think that instead of all getting excited about the boat design it is for all to focus on what made the Dabbie the great boat it is and to try and devise a way forward to recreate the class and grow it.
I am very pleased to see the amount of response to this discussion, may it continue.
I believe we all wish the class to grow and I think the current committee must concentrate on this and not start a squabble abt the technicalities.
If the Technical Committee is happy with the rules so be it as long as it does not inflate the costs beyond what is reasonably affordable. We all know there are parents who will throw any amount of cash at a boat if they think it will help their child to win. We do not want to get to a stage where Oppies cost in excess of R 30,000 which was the case when I left SA

By: Wayne Ribbink

Wayne Ribbink — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:38:35 +0000

In response to Ian’s comment “that history has also shown unless the plastic boat is very hitech it will either be overweight or soft”. Having built a couple of grp Dabbies, not using high tech materials, and seen that they are not overweight, one was purposely built ‘extra-strong’, or soft, the validity of that statement is somewhat questionable. Having also witnessed the manufacture of numerous Unicorn A Class cats, by Gordon Rowe at Kayak Centre, in the 70′s and 80′s. Take note that on this boat each hull weighs only 22 Kg’s at 18ft long, straight grp foam sandwich, the evidence is clearly to the contrary. I respect that Ian has made a few timber boats, however the capabilities of an experienced builder and standard grp materials are capable of providing a down to weight boat as both Stephen and I have done. Jaap Constant, who built the first grp Dabbies in Durban during the 70′s, used 30mm refrigeration foam in his boats, and you can still find a couple lurking about!! He also never put in a single bulkhead, there was only a large stringer down the centre! Certainly not the required production standard, however, that some of those boats lasted as long as they did, is testament to the characteristics of grp, even when poorly applied. To further add some history, I still have a grp Spearhead built by Jack White in 1979. The boat is down to weight, 82Kg’s, stiff and still full of go.

By: Owen Baxter

Owen Baxter — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:21:44 +0000

Thanks Steve, I have no issues with what you are doing and wish you every success.

Owen

By: Stephen du Toit

Stephen du Toit — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:22:22 +0000

I’m always amazed at how rumours get out and at how incorrect they are. Our new glass boats are about 5 kg underweight before fitting out and are built with 8mm foam and 5mm foam internal reinforcing. The boat is vacuumed using polyester resin and is more cost effective for us to build than a ply boat. I have built over 80 Dabbies this far and the only problems I have had with measurement is that a lot of measurers do not know how to use a tape measure correctly or how to read the very rules that they are trying to enforce. If a measurement station is 3300 from the transom then you will not find that station by running a tape around the bottom curve of the hull!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only concern that I am hearing about at the moment is the use of packing in the back of the CB case. This to me is wrong in that it shortens the usable length of the case and therefor alters the relevant measurements, ie transon to aft of cb case.

By: Owen Baxter

Owen Baxter — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:48:36 +0000

Hi Ian & Tony,

Jack Koper’s intent of designing a home built boat for young sailors to have fun on is one of the underlying principles that we strive to not move away from. Rules were put into place to govern hull size sails etc but fitting placement etc was not dictated on. You must remember that the dabchick is not a strict one design boat but allows for certain amount of development within certain parameters, having said that the Dabchick is still the most cost effective trainer around and we will strive to keep it that way.One of the factors that allowed Mylar sails to fly is that there is, unlike a few years back,very little if no difference in the cost compared Dacron.

The Maximum removable weight that may be added to a Dabbie is 5 Kilo’s. The emphasis is on removable. If for example you build at 32,6 Kg you could add expoxy to the weight which will make the boat heavier and use lead weighing less than 5 kgs to bring the total weight to 38,6 kg’s.

I do not believe that any focus has been lost, in recruitment maybe, which we are working on, but we need to take into account 3 things :

1) What do the sailors want – Koper was adamant that the sailors should control their class ,not us.(Mylar was voted in by the sailors)
2) It must remain cost effective ,not forgetting who foots the bills.
3) We must never lose sight of our heritage.

The bottom line is that in terms of what has been outlined the rules have not been broken. If changes are required, the sailors – not the parents must motivate these to the Technical committee for review.

I have asked our Technical guys to review our comments and add if they feel its necessary.

Owen

By: Ian Mitchell

Ian Mitchell — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:36:14 +0000

I totally agree with Tony.
I am a ex dabbie dad, past chairman and builder of 3 boats ( 3358, 3365 & 3366) and I must admit being one of those who pushed the limits as the boats performance shows.However I never broke the rules.
The boat is meant to be fun and inexpensive ( not like that plastic bathtub)
The rules are there and if skippers break them they must be protested.
Re masts the stiffness factor must not enter the equation as different size skippers and different sailing conditions must be catered for. In most senior classes numerous systems are used to control mast bend which are not available in the Dabbie.
However I firmly believe that we are pushing the limits too far now.
if we want to encourage new skippers the Dabbie must be kept inexpensive and no too hi-tech.
As regards the plastic dabbie there is a rule as to how much weight may be added and where. However history has also shown unless the plastic boat is very hitech it will either be overweight or soft ( which is fatal for a dabbie) which is a flat planing hull.
We must remember that Koper’s intent when designing the boat was to design something simple that father and son/daughter could build together at reasonable cost.
Having been out of SA for 7 years and now having returned I am concerned that we have lost focus about what it is all about with the enivatable consequences that come with this.

Ian mitchell
( ex DASA Chairman)